Well as you can see in our puppy photos, our current litter consists of diluted colours such as Fawn & Dilute Black.

It is my understanding based on colour genetics in horses (correct me if I am wrong in relation to the Koolie) this form of dilution is seperate to merle dilution that causes the excessive white (deaf/blind issues) instead this dilution affects the base/dark colour of the dog ie the black on the blue merle, the chocolate on the red merle in the same way a buckskin horse is the dilution of a bay coloured horse.

So far I have heard mixed opinions on the dilute in the Koolie so thought I'd start a thread to get the forum members opinion & experiences with them.

My concern, like with many, that being unusual & a 'pretty' colour that it could be used in the wrong way to create pups that are easier to sell with no attention paid to concentration of merle in a mating or working ability.

So opinions about dilutes in general....& please don't be negative about these pups on an open forum, dilution is clearly present in the Koolie therefore they are born what they are I am just looking for opinions to get a general feel for their general acceptance.

Hi Mushoz

My understanding is the same as yours, that the dilute gene affects the base colour of the dog, black dilutes to blue or grey, red dilutes to a fawn colour. The merle gene is a coat pattern (like brindle or sable), so is independant of the the colour genes. It acts to intermittently wash out the colour. There are dilute koolies, but they are uncommon, so much so that we don't really have a common description for the colours such as lilac or blue.
My concern is that dilute in other breeds can bring problems with them, such as difficulty in growing healthy hair and skin sensitivities. If this was to be a problem with koolies as well, I think it would be detrimental to the breed because at this stage our major problem is blindness and deafness caused usually by homozygous merles. IF there was problems with dilutes, genetically it is possible to have dilute homozygous merles, that could be very unfortunate if they inherit the worst of both genes.

They are pretty though and that concerns me with the "oh isn't it cute I have to have one" crowd, which only leads to more work for Koolie Rescue.

Like you I am interested to hear what other people think, so I hope everyone has a think about it and posts their thoughts here also.

I thought I'd just clarrify the description of diulte in regards to the same term often used in the merle 'dilution'.

It would be interesting to know from these other breeds where these issues with skin & coat are present in 1x Dilute (one copy of the gene such as my pups) or in dogs with 2x Dilute (2copies of the gene through a dilute to dilute mating) as I don't think it would be very good to mate 2 dilutes together, doing this in horses creates your Cremellos & perlinos which have suncancer, eye sight & various problems (not all). I might try to chase up some info today.

Hi Mushoz
This is am interesting topic as I am not into breeding I have no idea. So I like learning everything in this breed that I can. As you said before it's not colour that people are breeding for but the working instinct the structure (confirmation) temperment etc. As long as it doesnt cause any problems with the breed but than you get the people like you say who wants to breed the rare colours and want more money for that and dont care about the consequences. It would be interesting about the 1x and 2x dilution and what would happen. Dumb question what is perlinos I have heard of cremellos but I havent heard of perlinos before.
cheers
Danni

Yeah Dannimilo I am raising it as I have heard of a few people that have had it crop up so it is certainly out there & I think that whilst it may have it's drawbacks it really does need to have some information & experience developed on it so we know what happens, good & bad with it in the Koolie. I didn't expect to get dilutes, I am only new to the colours of Koolies myself but have experience in dilutes in horses so I think it needs to be explored by responsible people to get the info required on it.

In regards to Perlino, (not including dilution of black which isn't common) there are 2 main base colours in a horse that can be diluted Bay & Chestnut. From Chestnut a Palomino is a horse with one copy of dilute gene & a cremello is a chestnut with 2 copies of the gene giving them a pale off white/goldy colour & pinkish skin. From Bay you get Busckskin with 1 copy of dilute gene & Perlino with 2 copies. A Perlino horse has a more pale orangey appeareance with more rosey coloured skin when compared to a cremello.

I don't expect the dilute x dilute in koolies (& other breeds) to produce this degree of dilution BUT it may explain the coat & skin disorders.

Hey there Mushoz

We had 2 dilutes pups from our last red merle to red merle mating. I call them Kaki merles Don't know if it's correct, but never seen this colour before. Interesting given that this exact cross had not produced anything like this before. The litter comprised of a lovely red merle, a solid red and the two dilutes.

It was quite refreshing to see what mother nature throws up. I don't think you will ever get bored breeding koolies because just when you think things are getting predictable something else will pop up.
I've attached some photo's of the dilutes. Both dogs have lovely soft coats and lots of solid pigment around eyes and nose. I tried to get a pic of their eye colour, it's sort of that weimerana green.

One of the dogs has been desexed by his owners as he lives in town and I have retained the other, who looks like he is going to be very handy around sheep. He looks quite spekky in the yards.

Haven't thought about breeding with him, but I was of the same opinion in that you'd need to be careful if you were to breed to another dilute or to a bitch with a recessive dilute gene (if there is such a thing).

Just a discussion point.. but if you were to breed dilute to dilute would you get the equivalent of the cremello/perlino i.e it becomes a dominant gene and the resulting pups would be 100% dilutes?

Sheringa

Dilution in Dogs
Now this one for me is an interesting read as the lightest on my dilute pups are very much a description of the Weimaraner 'Ghost Grey' & similar in comparison to the photo of the Weimaraner down the leftside of the page.


Coat Colour related problems in dogs

Yep thats the colour of the 2 palest...thanks for the input Sheringa!

I have no interest in experimenting as I expect double dilutes would not be a good thing at all, but we will watch how they grow & go from there.

Sheringa, this wasn't by chance a 4th generation litter that produced these dilutes was it?

looks at the mutations etc. associated with dilutes

Mushoz

Thanks for the info and links certainly helps if somebody else has found and sorted through lots of articles for us all to read.

The 2 dilutes in the red merle to red merle mating are at least 4th generation, I believe they may be 5th. Do you think this has any significance? I think it's interesting that we haven't seen this colour before in the previous 3 litters from this mating. Maybe it has something to do with semen temperature at the time of mating!

Sheringa

I just had it mentioned that things seem to pop up in 4th generation matings is all. I spose it's like anything, if there is a diverse genetic background over the course of 4 matings usually everything in the line pops up at some stage.

Yeah, that makes sense. I think we are quite lucky really as the Koolie as a breed is relatively trouble free.

Has anybody heard the latest on the CA (Cerebral Abiotrophy) in Kelpies. Apparently up to 90% of Kelpies could carry this gene. Do we test for this in the Koolie? Is there a simple test available? Probably should start another topic, but if anyone has any info, we'd love to hear it.



Sheringa

I love it when you talk about Genetics and my head fills with cotton wool.
Sheringa is CA the disease that claimes Kelpies before their 8 weeks old, refered to by many as shakers disease?
Our genetisist are monitoring but I don't think there is a test for it yet.

Tjukurpa
I don't know what age it affects the dogs, but I have heard of it affecting working dogs rather than pups. It apparently expresses itself as a mental problem also affects their balance and causes seizures etc.

Carriers as opposed to affected dogs don't show any symptoms and could therefore pass it on without the breeders knowing. There isn't a treatment for it and I believe that affected dogs have to be euthanased.

At this stage there is no test for it. The Working Kelpie Council are seeking to develop one and have been in discussions with a geneticist. We have spoken to our guys who are interested, but don't want to step on toes. I haven't heard of anything like this in relation to koolies, but of course that doesn't guarantee anything a lot of people just won't mention bad experiences. It would be benificial if the lab we work with could develop the test as we would have access to it. We do have dialogue with the WKC and have offered assistance so in future it may be a reality.

With regard to things like dilutes popping up in the 4th litter etc, it is my understanding that to get the full results of expected percentages on breeding any particular gene you would have to breed at least 200 pups from the same maiting...otherwise it is all just chance.