I have a question about blue eyes in Koolies.

Pixie (red merle with lots of white) has two blue eyes, will she throw the blue eyes in her puppies if she has any?? She would be crossed with Smithy my new male pup (solid chocolate with merle on his chest from Brescott)he comes from a litter that has predominantly blue eyes, will this make the blue eye stronger??

Eye colour is a funny one, I have bred Siberian Huskies for 10yrs & always get surprised by the eye colours.
If you have blue eyes in both parents there should be a large % of pups born with blue eyes. If you have blue & brown eyed parents then it is a bit hard to say but if there are blue behind the male you should get a few with blue, likely some bi eyeds (one of each) & maybe some Parti-eyeds (mix of colour in one of both eyes) & you could also get amber which usually comes through from the red/chocolate body colour of a dog ie any pup that s born red will likely have either amber, green or blue eyes.

Can you take a photo of your girls eye colours so we can compere them with other blue eyes.
The merel gene can create wall eyes which have been mistakenly thought of as blue eyes.
It would be good to show some true blue eyes.

Good point TJ! I find the blue eyes in my Siberian Huskies different to the blue eyes I've seen in Koolies, I can post a pic of typical blue eyes in the Sibes if you want for comparison.

TJ is this photo close enough, if not will take another one tommorrow, they are both passed out on the couch so will take one tommorrow if necessary.

The photos that Bec and Matt sent me of her parents they were both dark eyed so I am curious as to how blue eyes work.

Click to view attachment

Not sure what happened there but Pikka has appeared in multiple copies!!!!

I would think with the white on her that her eyes are white blue (wall eyed) due to the pigment (or lack thereof) as the dogs I have with white over their heads & blue eyes are very very pale due to the lack of pigment & I know that in Siberian Huskies you need at least one blue eyed parent or a bi eyed parent(s) with predominatly blue eyes in the pedigree to create blue eyes.

Here is a pic of what I classify normal blue eyes note the depth of the blue without them looking white.


& here is the eyes of my Keira (Koolie)which you can see are white blue.

Hi JackieH, have just "trimmed up" your post. Great to see the photos, if you get the chance to get a closer one it would be good to see the difference in not only the colour, but the pigmentation of the skin around the eyes and also the pupil. Some of MM koolies have dropped pupils or mishapen ones as well as no or minimal pigment around the eyes. The Sibe's eyes are gorgeous but I often find those of MM koolies rather discomforting. If you have a Koolie Calendar you will see this months pinup has eyes very similar to the Sibe with full pigmentation around each eye. She is also a fantastic worker, TJ & I had the pleasure of witnessing her working ability and she was just non stop talent, the whole package.

After many aborted photos I have a closeup photo of Pikka's blue eyes. They are a bit red around the edges as we have just returned from a walk in the bush and the long grass sometimes will irritate the edges.

It was really hard to get her to stay still long enough for the camera to focus on her eyes. Hence a piece of chicken held up in front to keep her focused.

Great pic thanks!

Is it just me or is her pupil on the side where she has pigment (patch) bigger than the pupil in the non-pigment eye?

The non-pigment eye I believe is they typical eye seen in MM dogs like my deafies with white on the head & the other eye I assume to be the same with more influence from the pigmented area to the outter eye. This eye colour is generally caused by the Merle to Merle matings that result in Homozygous merle (MM) I don't think it is genetic blue eyes like you'd see in my Siberians but rather pigment induced blue eyes (non-pigmented skin & reduced pigment in eye).

I wouldn't be surprised either if the eye on the non-pigment side is a mildly starburst pupil, bit hard to see with the pupil contracted but a starburst pupil isn't a clear cut round pupil, it has an irregular shape to it with spikes or bulges.

When I mention pigmented eyes, you can see in my Husky photo she has white face, but black eyeliner & 3rd eyelid.

Here's a good webpage to see diagrams of merle related eyes & pupil problems, may help you understand what we're on about.
Deaf/eye problems from merle

The pupil difference is more noticable when she is excited like she was.

Normally it is almost the same, but the non pigment pupil is slightly smaller than the pigmented eye and it gets a bit weepy when she has had a lot of running through the underbrush, lantana, long grass and such.

She does occasionally get sunburnt on the nose and under that eye. When I remember, we tackle her and put sunburn cream on her face, but she is such a squibb it usually ends up in a full on tussle.

We tried doggles on her but they seem to get dirty easily and cut down her vistion when covered in dust or mud. So we cut and altered a cap for her and she seems to be happy to wear it if we are out riding or walking on a sunny day. At home during the day the house yard is very shady and it is not a problem.

Her hearing is very sharp (probably becuase she has such big ears!!!), she is the one that picks up noises at night and zooms off to do her guard dog duties before the others have got off their lazy backsides, and her eyesight seems to be normal. Although at night "Pixie sees dead people..." as we call it, at night she will bark at things that no one else can see.

Is the male pup you intend to breed her to from merle parents?

I hope I'm not misquoting him, but I seem to remember Dr Paul McGreavy (also a Koolie parent) talking about merle dogs' eyes at the APDT conference last (?) year. There was apparently some research on them in Dachshunds (in the 70s, I think) but it's in German, and I haven't been able to find a translation. Anyway, if I remember right, he said that even when merles are Mm their eyes are different from other dogs, their tapetum is thinner. It seems not to harm their vision usually though.



That made me wonder, though, about how their vision compares to that of non-merles. The tapetum causes light to bounce around in the eye, making the most of the light, but, compared to our eyes, it reduces clarity of the image. So I wonder whether merles might see more like us, compared to other dogs, with more detail vision.



Libby

Mushoz

Yes his parents are both red merle. (Hunterslea Coffee and Brescot Lilly).

If this pairing is not in her favour, then I will not breed her to him and even though it is expensive flying I would send her to somewhere else that is suitable.. I was trying to avoid this by getting my own male dog as there are no other koolies other than the odd pet that has moved up here.

Maybe in time there will be more move up here, but at the moment there is little or no knowledge of the breed in North Queensland.

I hope you don't see it as being rude, I am just mentioning incase your not aware so I hope you don't think I'm nosey.

Your girl is pretty much a Homozygous merle (with all that white) & if your boy is by merle parents he could well be Homozygous as well, & even if he is heterzygous it is still high risk that the mating will produce a significant % of pups that are extremely high risk of being deaf/blind.

I personally would select a male of solid breeding out of at least 1 solid parent to bring the merle factor in the pups back to a low risk mating. There are some solid lines/breeders in sthrn QLD that when the time comes might offer a service to you?



That is very interesting, I have noticed a difference between my merle bred bitch Shay (merle x merle which I think is Mm not MM but I can't be sure as I don't yet have the history beyond the parents) & my others (merle) that I know are merle x solid or solid x solid carrying merle gene. Shay's eyes are much lighter, she has a very red & large 3rd eyelid that we initially thought was allergies but it is just her, & her eyes seem to be a lot different in appearance to the others.

Ok, will bear that in mind for Pixie. I chose a solid male with her in mind, I guess I should have researched a bit better.

Would the same apply to Poppie her full sister from the same litter - she is a red merle?

Depends on the parents & whether she is a Mm or MM I think, always hard to tell.

If a male has 2 merled parents & has some merle on him it means he is at least Mm. A solid non-merle (mm) male either from a MmxMm mating or Solid to Merle mating will reduce the risk of deaf/blind pups. The male you have may be suitable but based on her amount of white I would personally not breed her to anything other than a non-merle as she is almost borderline if not affected from excessive merle.

A lot of people have no problems breeding merle to merle, & sadly many just cull the ones with excessive white caused by MM in the resulting pups or sell them on before they realise they are deaf, or dump them in pounds.

I am also new to breeding Koolies, but have spent 10+yrs with other breeds & giving home to 3 deaf/sight impared koolies I am an advocate for not mating risky litters.

I don't know much about your lines & maybe someone with experience in them can offer some more info as to the MM risk from your male. I hope I'm not coming across too strong I just don't like seeing people get caught in any breed affected my Merle MM as they were unaware.

If you wish to get more info on Merle related issues please don't hesitate to ask I'm sure I & others can send plenty your way.

Although the best advice to anyone just starting out breeding a merle breed is that for safety the best mating is merle to solid as no offspring can be double merle or MM, many koolie breeders will tell you they have no problem breeding merle to merle and some say they have never bred a blind or deaf pup. This is probably not strictly true, but we have had discussion with breeders of the German Tiger dog who are also merle and they say blindness and deafness is not a problem for them. But they don't have any noticable amount of white on them such as an Irish Trim either. Research indicates that the Tiger could be an ancestor of the koolie, maybe this has made the koolie less inclined to suffer problems, particularly in dogs with no or little white. It would seem from what litters have been bred since the club has been active that dark strongly marked merles with little white bred to equally darkly marked merles will be less likely to suffer problems. The more white or the lighter the merle becomes the more predictable the problems become. It is certainly worth discussing the options with experienced breeders if you have two merle dogs and have your heart set on breeding them, but you must be prepaired to acknowledge you have made the decision.

Can you please define the term solid coloured as that was what I assumed that I hade bought from Brescott Koolies.

He is dark chocolate with a white (with red flecks) patch on his chest. He appears in the koolie newsletter fo April 2007 Page 9

A pic would be useful to clear it up, I don't have that newsletter LOL!


Mt response was based on that you mentioned he had merle on him.

He could well be a solid then, a solid dog has no merle on it whatsoever, it can have a white chest, irish trim etc. but no merle. If he is indeed solid & it is just white & not merling you mention then you should be o.k as he would be from a Mm X Mm mating & be mm.

This is not a good photo he is very difficult to get to stay still.

He looks like a true solid to me (non-merle) the patch on his chest I assume is just white with maybe a bit of the chocolate colour flecked through it.

Thats fantastic, & you should have no MM problems with him (based on what I can see in the pic) He is a handsome boy

Great info too Silhouette, Merle to merle matings are common & not as risky as in other breeds, but deaf/eye problems do exist so like anything it purely comes down to assessing risk & being responsible in matings.

Getting back to the blue eyes- I think your girls eyes are not genetic blues, I think they are purely pigment/merle based but you never know if the boy carries blue eyes in his genes as eyes do work in funny ways, you might get 1-2pups with blue eyes or bi eyes.

His patch has red flecks through it so fingers crossed it is not merle but anyway he is almost 5 months old so will bide my time and see how it turns out. All the other pups in the litter had either one or both blue eyes and no major white on them and his are a nice amber colour.

He has smithfield cattle dog on his great great grandparents side so he has a bob tail certainly gives him more bite, even as young as he is, he is already out healing the horses.

This is so interesting.

I was wondering what the MMs from these pairings look like. How do you identify them?

Thanks, Libby

Hi JackieH
Handsome boy! Sometimes the white has some spotting in it that can easily be confused with merle, usually it appears where the white normally is though. That said, it is possible for a merle dog to only carry a few or even one merled hair. Without access to the DNA test for the merled gene I think you have done the best anyone could to choose a mate for your bitch. Unfortunately there are no guarantees in breeding dogs.

Hi Mushoz
One of the great things about koolie people being brought together by the club and this forum is that we can learn from each others experiences and this gives us much more power when making breeding decisions.

Hi Koolie Mum
Unfortunately we cannot verify which are genetically MM because the DNA test is not yet available to us. This is an observation of our own breeding and the results our members have had generally over the last 7 years not only of those breeding the darker merles, but when light merles are bred. Hopefully the test may become available to us before long and we will automatically test every koolie that submits DNA, then we will have that problem under control!!

Many thanks for the info, I have read a lot of the old posts as well, to gather more information. Although during my whole life I have never been without several dogs, this is the first time for Koolies. I lived in Bendigo for many years and a friend of mine had a Koolie pup and I fell in love with it, but once I returned to Queensland the opportunity was lost to get one.

So now I have four, I have become a Koolie convertee, well and truly hooked.

Just to add my bit to the confusion.
As it has been pointed out in this thread that solid colours, this is a dog that has no display of merle can carry the merle gene.
As is the case with our black bitch.
Good luck with the breeding JackieH, you have made the best choice you could with out DNA guidence and I look forward to reading your results and the day when DNA testing will solve all our problems and it will.
Thanks for the photos and you too Mushoz, I will try to put a thread up in the genetics forum so new members can access the information easily.
Please add to it when you can.
Silhouette if you want to or have more time to, and I get distracted again can you just pop the photos over to a new thread for blue eye definition.
Then you can grump at my poor bum for not attending to it.

Hi JackieH

I have bred Koolies with neither sire or dam having Blue/Wall eye and still producing pup's with Wall eye.

I have also bred Wall/Blue eyed dogs and had pup's without Wall/Blue eye

I think I have a pup at the moment that Has 2 Wall Eyes and is solid black except for a small white spot on his chest.

I think that if the gene is in the line of the dogs it may be reproduced or not.

I hope that I have a predominately black with a Wall eye to show people that Wall eye doesn't cause blind or deaf pup's.

I can tell you what dies though, PEMPHIGUS FOLIACEUS.
A problem among a lot of different breeds that causes a degenerative problem with the snout of a dog. This can be in a pink nose, or as I have seen a pink stripe just behind the black of the nose or a white line thick or thin that runs from the top of the skull to the back of the normally black tip of the nose.

I have a photo of a dog here that as a pup had a fully black nose that has now degenerated to an iritating nose that is changing from black to pink.
This dog when bred with some time ago produced a litter that had so many problems that it wasn't funny.

I have notified the registrar of this problem and am hoping that the gene that causes this can be discovered or the Koolie breed may breed itself into oblivion.

I have bred this out of my lines but am still looking for a Dark Blue Merle dog or bitch that hasn't got this problem to kick this problem down a further generation to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

I am worried that if this is not arrested and some of the ensuiing pup's are bred from that it will become so widespread that it can't be stopped.

As I have said this affects a lot of different breeds not just Koolies and I think that it is caused by line breeding to long without introducing new blood.

I also think that some accepted standards be applied to Koolie breeders namely:
that Father over Daughter or Brother over Sister be outlawed for the following reasons

A genetic problem would be doubled in the progeny as would any medical condition both these problems may also skip a generation so the accepted standard should be a 1 to 3 ratio which means great grand sire over great grand daughter and so no so that there is a 3 generation gap and no continuence of and problem and certainly no doubling of any such problem.

I think that breeding with a dog that has no history can also bring the Koolie undone as you could be breeding problems into a line that you are not aware of.

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

I've been missing our genetic discussions on here (everybody else probably goes...here we go again ;-).

My view is that any breed with a closed or relatively closed gene pool will from time to show inherited recessives that cause health problems, because it is 'normal' for individuals to carry small genetic errors (there are vast amounts of DNA code to be copied), some of which may cause harm when homozygous, and homozygousity for beneficial and harmful genes is increased by linebreeding and by closing the genepool (which is just a larger scale of the same thing). But an at least relatively closed gene pool is necessary if one is to maintain a population as a breed. So imo it's a fairly fraught balancing act between these 2 things.

Do you think that many Koolie ppl practice such intense inbreeding as you describe? I think that most dog ppl are intrinsically, actually quite superstitiously, afraid of such matings. And to be perfectly honest I don't think I've ever heard a dog breeder talk about it in such a way as to make me think they actually understood it. I very much doubt personally whether (should I become a breeder) I'd practice such matings, but in terms of genetic practices they can be quite good for a population, if maybe less good for the individual dogs produced, because they increase the chances that genetic recessives present heterozygously in the parents will be identified.

When it comes to selecting breeding dogs in negative terms (ie, being careful to avoid things that may cause harm) it's so much the luck of the draw. There is so much you can't know about the genetics of any dog, however thoroughly their pedigree is known. So imo breeding dogs should be chosen for their good qualities.

Hi KoolieMum,

I disagree with some of what you say in that I will in future be watching for some genetic draw backs that I am aware of.

The problem I have described elsewhere in this forum once you have dealt with it can be easily seen in a pup, I don't mean to say that it would definately be a problem but could develop into a problem I cannot therefore ignore this as it would be irresponsible of me to do so.

The dogs I breed go mainly to cattle farmers and sheep farmers and I get very good feedback on them but just because they are very good working dogs doesn't mean that I should discount genetic problems when I can avoid them.

I have described this particular problem in this place as well as on my website despite breeding the problem out of my lines, this is all to draw attention to the problem so that others may check for themselves what this means.

I knew I had a problem some years ago but never knew what to call it until I changed to a better vet who was able to tell me what the problem was, I think that a lot of other people have the same problem and probably think they are alone, I hope that this information does some good and that people do start to look at negative as well as positive aspects to a potential breeding dog

Hope this makes sense

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

I did not mean that a breeder ought not try to avoid problems that they know about, I can see that my post was not very clear on that. Only that it is impossible to prevent genetic disorders occuring within a breed (if they do not occur then breeders are just very lucky, rather than very skilled). And they are, regardless of previous history, always apt to occur in the future. That is just the nature of producing purebred animals - if you want distribution of desirable genes throughout a population of dogs (and we do) then it is inevitable that undesirable genes will also be similarly distributed. Dominant genes are identified easily, if very harmful (not consistent with life or reproduction) are usually naturally bred out, if moderately harmful are usually easily and quickly selected against by breeders within a few generations. But recessives can hide until they are widely distributed, and then are very difficult to breed out. And it is even more difficult with conditions caused by a number of genes. Attempting to do so is likely to result in a reduction of genetic diversity (unless it is possible to identify carriers and selectively breed them and then identify their non-carrier progeny and use those in place of their carrier parents in a breeding program) and an increase in the number of genetic conditions affecting the breed.

One of the things I love about the Koolie is that dogs of whose genetic history little is known but with desirable qualities can be used by breeders. This is not much more genetically risky in short term, and in the long term much less risky, than breeding to a dog about whose pedigree much more is known. I'm not discounting though that if I was wanting to breed elite herding dogs that I wouldn't want to use dogs with known pedigrees of great herding dogs, I'm talking about health and more general temperament/behaviour issues primarily.