Hi All:

I have posted photos of my Koolie Jacksy in the past. I enjoyed having him so much that I got a puppy of the same parentage, but 18-months younger.

My own brother has the littermate of Jacksy as well. What fantastic dogs they are!

The last time I posted I was living in Newcastle. Now I have relocated to Sydney, along with the dogs and my partner.

I am wondering if someone could help me: I am trying to track the bloodlines on my dogs. The dam was a tri-merle, blue-eyed dog called "Bushy" The owner of Bushy had a dairy farm at Singleton or Scone. I bought the puppies from him in town. We are not absolutely sure of the sire, except his name, which was "Beau"

Bushy was purchased fully trained for work for about $1500.00 from a Mr. Jim Marshall of Scone or Singleton. The owner claims she is the best working dog he ever had. After eight litters she is now spayed.

Does anyone know of these bloodlines or be able to put me in contact with anyone in the area that may know?

My e-mail address is ssull@tpg.com.au Thank you.

Here are the guys:

Alby Winking with Jacksy in the background
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Alby has the ball at the Beach
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Alby and Jacksy at the Beach
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I must admit these are probably the most photographed dogs in the world.




Oops! The photos above did not show up. Let me give this a try:


Winking Alby with Jacksy in the background:




Alby with the ball at the beach - playing with his brother Jacksy



Jacksy and Alby at the beach

nice looking boys you have there i have not heard of bushy but silhouette may be able to help you out. good luck

Hi Shaunagh, Welcome Back! I remember Jacksy's photos, they are a handsome pair.

With regard to you dogs lines, I can't find any registered dogs that may be them, but Jim Marshall is at Scone, he has been a member of the club but didn't submit any registrations. He has submitted DNA on a couple of dogs so doing DNA on yours may give us a likelyhood of a relationship. He has bought dogs himself off Enid Clark at Singleton who we have DNA samples from so could possibly get a link that way. As the DNA process develop they tell us they will be able indicate family links from their data (no matter what others say is not possible this is from the scientists themselves). If you would like Jims address I would be happy to email it to you.

Hope you enjoy being back at the forum and post often.

Hi Shaunagh

Well I have some news for you. I have spoken to Jim and he actually bred Bushy's mother. Bushy's mum was a blue merle koolie. Bushy's grandma was a kelpie x koolie and was a grey merle who won 2 yard trials and placed in numerous other trials. Jim still owns a son by Bushy. I believe Bushy has been D & A tested by the Koolie Club. As for Beau my friend Enid said it might be one of her lines but unless you can find out the owners name she can't guarantee it.

this is interesting i will have to keep my eye on this post i love mysteries

Thanks for the help and the contacts! I'll keep the thread informed as I find out more about this "cliff-hanger" ha ha. I want to register the dogs, so knowing a bit about their lines is great. The thing I love about Koolies is that they are such a mystery. I also like that they've been pretty well left alone to be themselves without the interference of breeding to standards, or having the breed loose it's character by breeding for looks alone, and yet they are so unique and distictive looking anyway. People are always fascinated when they see the dogs, and want to know all about them because they are so unique. The weird thing about Koolies is that even though there is so much variety to them, they are still so distinctive. Once you know a Koolie, you will always know one when you see one, solid or merle, but it's just difficult to explain how you know. They are just such one offs as a breed, even among so much variety among themselves.

I've noticed that certain behaviours are more common (if not unique) to Koolies as well.


Like how they sometimes want to pat you with their paws. I've seen Koolies do this to other dogs too, but I don't think I've ever seen any other dog breed do this.

Koolies definitely have an 'off switch' too. Keplies were my favourite breed until I discovered Koolies, but Kelpies aren't as good as Koolies as switching off.


Koolies can be incredibly perceptive and sensitive too. I've never seen another breed of dog that can sulk like a Koolie.


Michael

I love the first photo of Alby of her winking. They are wonderful looking dogs. Koolies are very distinct dogs, but I have not got any koolies here to compare Ceejay too, to see whether her traits are just her or her breed. One of these traits ; Head tilting when I am just "talking" to her as though she is really listening to me amd what I call a silent bark a bark with a silencer attached. The thing is she is starting to pass these on to Izzy so know I have two dogs tilting the heads at me while I am talking to them.

Have fun Shaunagh with the detecting and research it is a lot of fun to find answers to mysteries, and you learn heaps on the way. Keep us all informed on how it goes.

Oh my God! Someone elses Koolie pats people and other dogs with their paws too. When I first noticed it I nearly fell over. They have worked out they get my attention with it now, and they have upped the ante and now they postively whack each other. Alby has just learned to do it from Jacksy, and we have to tell them to stop "bitch slappin' " each other. Yes, they are also extreemly perceptive. If anyone here is sick or upset, Jacksy in particular is the first to join the pity party.

Hi Shaunagh
Good luck with your search for information, one good thing about the Koolie Club register is that we are happy to update information as it comes to hand, so if you would like to register your dogs feel free to do so and if you have information come to hand to add we will add it in and adjust anything (such as sections and certificates) as required. It is more important to have accurate and complete information for as many dogs as possible than to have restrictions. I am the first to admit that the registrar can be pretty slow at times (Sorry) but she plods away and gets there eventually, if we ever get through this drought I'll get time to get the book work caught up.

How true! We had a visit from a very experienced breeder and official for the health and genetics committee of the VCA at one of our meetings. There were more than 20 koolies roaring around having a ball, including all shapes and sizes and I thought he is going to laugh at us but he stood in the middle aghast saying "they are all the same!". He could see it so clearly because he is used to looking at the structure of dogs. He is going to help us create a "structural ideal" which will be a guide not a standard. It was a great neutral verification of the breed.

What is the difference between a "structural ideal", and conformation, as breeders of other dogs call it? My aunt, (who mostly breeds cattle dogs) likes Koolies because she says they don't have the conformation problems of more well known breeds. My grandfather (who worked in the sale yards in the Riverina all his life) said of Koolies, "Oh Koolies, yeah, real good dogs, do the work of two men", and nothing more.What does conformation in a dog mean generally? One of the things I have read about koolies is that they may vary in body type from the type of work the dog does. Do you think that there are particular structural types from state to state (or even region)within the breed. I think it would be a shame to restrict the look of the dog too much. My dogs for example are genetic full brothers but 18 mths apart. They are both the same blue merle, but one is short and the other rough coated, one is brown eyed the other wall eyed, one has drop ears, the other part dropped ears.One is slightly taller and leaner, but they have identical body ratios. In the litters there were some solids. If the info above about their bloodlines is confirmed, well they come from good old Koolie lines from the Hunter region, with good working ability, and there is nothing wrong with them. I would hate to think my rough coat dog would ever be considered an inferior ideal because I understand alot of people are trying to breed short coats nowdays because they are low maintenance. Anyway, just a few thoughts, your thoughts would be appreciated.
Shaunagh

Confirmtion of a breed is just as you think. Show breeds must be between x and y heigh, j and k weight and be of a build or colour. For example from friend has a large German Shepard that she can not show as he is too tall and is a long coat. In German Shepards a long coat or white colouring is not to confirmation and can not be shown. It is the same with all show breeds. As Koolies are not recignised by the ANKA they can not be shown and therefore our breeders are more worried about temp., working ability and general soundness rather than looks. The best worker is not always the best looking dog!!! Heres for keeping the Koolie breed true!!!

Only one of my Koolies (Ellie) "pats" you with her paw and also has to physically sit or touch you when she is with you. Enid who bred her reckons it's hereditary as her great, great, great, great (oh I don't know how many greats) grandparents did it too.

Ellie also ducks her whole head under water when she is swimming or cooling off which her mother and grandmother did.

As for the off switch how true is that. My dogs can be racing around the paddock and as soon as they are allowed inside it's on the lounge and fast asleep.

Do you get filthy looks from your Koolies when they are sulking?

Mine must touch either me or each other when at rest as well, it's quite peculiar, so maybe they are related to Enids dogs , I will be calling her next week. I still am not sure what the diffeence between a structural standard and conformation is though.

I still am not sure what the difference between a structural standard and conformation is
i am with you guys as well i have 4 koolies and all are different from each other even tho 3 of them are related spice is summa's half sister they share the same mother, spice is long legged and has a lovely long neck she is my tallest koolie and she has nice strong cheek bones, summa is a little bit more solid in build then spice and shorter but does not have the same cheek bones, Quin is a tiny bit shorter then summa ( he is also younger) and more round in the barrel then summa and then there is amber she is five mouths old now i think and is almost as tall as Quin and almost as heavy as Quin in build amber is spice's great niece and summa's great niece from Dusty's side of the family plus she is gundy's great niece as well(i think that's what she is to gundy)
and as for touching yes they all do that but in different ways Quin is the paw man he likes to pat you or wrap his front legs around your ankles when you are walking he just does not realize that if you trip and break your neck there will be no more pats stupid dog he has to be male spice has to lick and lay her head on your lap amber just walks up and drops her head onto your lap and just stares at you until you give her a pat and summa tries to lick your feet or legs if you are wearing shorts i think i like ambers way best for getting a pat out of me i don't end up covered in mud and i don't end up wet from non stoppable tongues. all of them are head tilters spice starts crying when she has done something wrong even before i find what she has been into Quin moans and groans and makes heaps of strange noises when he is put on the chain and chucks a tantrum and throws his water bowl away

I said it would be a structural ideal not a standard. It would be a guide to what is a structurally sound working dog ie straight legs, good leg set, points that make for a sound, good stamina working dog NOT specify coat lenght, colour, ear set etc. Which would allow all breeders to retain their own preferences our aim is to learn from the mistakes of breeds that have strict standards, that allow for whims and fashions to dictate the look of the dog not function and good health. We appreciate that koolies are in good condition because they have evolved as working dogs but more and more people seem to want something to work to as a guide and good structure is important for good working dogs.

It's good that there will be a structural ideal as opposed to conformation, as you explain it, for the reasons you say. When I was thinking about what it is that says "koolie" about the dogs, when they are all so varied, it must be general structure, and that is certainly not what you notice first, because all the other features of Koolies are so distracting so to speak, because they are so unique, such as the merling, or the wall or blue eyes, or the pink noses (and even more of a shock when all these features are in one dog, ha ha). It is hard to see the similarity in such variety. If they were all the same small range of variations as a kelpie say, it would be obvious because structural differences would stick right out as the only differences. Temperament is more subjective, as my old grandad said, "Koolies (or German coolies as he knew them), yea, real good dogs, do the work of two men". He made no further comment, but if you knew him, and his life in stock yards, that meant probably, willing, energetic, smart, fearless, fit and disease and drama free, and companionable at the end of the day. As an amateur,and with respect, I therefore nominate "real good dog, do the work of two men", as the temperament guideline

I have found this really interesting. I have show dogs, and our shows are actually called confirmation shows, it is a pain in the butt, as i have seen a perfectly good animal get ignored because the kink in his tail goes the wrong way or the feathering on his legs is not up to required length, his stop is not pronounced enough and so on.

What you people are doing with the koolies is really beneficial to the breed, structual soundness is an absolute necessity for any dog, let alone a working dog.

Thanks Jcas, it is good to get support from someone with experience of the conformation showing world. Although I am sure showing started out with the right intentions to me it has spiralled into a 'conformation of a fashion' ideal now and fashion is associated with whim not good health. Koolies have evolved in different areas of the country to the point that what people expect a koolie to look like in the form of colour, coat and ears etc is different in some of them but they are structurally the same. Our very knowledgable visitor pointed out some of those points, but was also able to tell us they were unique to the koolie breed. He has enough experience across the breeds to know they were not the same in kelpies or border etc and certainly gave us a new way of thinking about things.He was very excited about it also and that was inspiring.

Shaunagh
Exactly the same conclusion I came to, when you see a group of Koolies you can be overloaded by colour, coat etc that you can't get to comparing anything more structural - consciously anyway, but I think our subconscious has been taking it all in and sometimes tries to get the message back to us! Your grandad is welcome to still us German Coolies, like colours we don't discriminate between which spelling or wording is used all are welcome. We used Koolie for the club because it is simpler being an Australian breed and spelling with the K saved some confusion (for outsiders) will Collie and he was dead on the money with his description "real good dog.....".

I have noticed the difference between "show" dogs and "working" dogs. Before I settled on Ceejay, I looked at Kelpies and Border collies. The difference especially in the Kelpie with how they look in show dogs, all uniform colour and heavy set compared to the working kelpie two colours and light set. I am pleased to hear that this isn't going to happen to the Koolie. I like how they are all different but are the same, bit like a box of cadbury chocolate, all look different but have something in common.

Silhouette it is good to hear about the Koolie to be unique, is it to do with their bone structure? Maybe this explains the owners of Koolies we are also a very unique type.

Yes it is, but I have to say we were so excited I didn't take it all in... but he is very happy to help us document everything. Just a matter of getting a chance to clear a few other jobs (like DNA) and then concentrate to do it properly. After he helps us put together what he sees, I want to show it to several experienced breeders who work their koolies to fine tune it to what they look for, things that they all look for when assessing a dog for work and breeding potential.

That sounds very exciting Silhouette but also a lot of hard work.

Hi Ellie's mum

Yes & Yes

Which is why I want to get a few other things finished up first as it could be a long term project to get it right. But we have so many mature aged breeders with decades of experience available to us now as well as access to the gentleman who came to the meeting that I think the opportunity is ripe to put all the knowledge and experience together for the best result. I have discussed what constitutes good structure with a few of them (including the Queen of Mirannie)but have kicked myself several times for not actually documenting the answers. Looks like TJ and I are hitting the road again oneday (well it's an excuse at least....)

I've been away from the list for a few days, but boy did this thread take off!

Wow, it's great to hear all the particular traits, etc, that everyone's Koolies have. Seems I'm not alone in having dogs that want to pat or'bitch slap' LOL!

Ziggy is a head tilter too. He's also a leg and foot licker if he wants attention.

If I'm sitting in a chair, Precious will sometimes put both her front paws on me and climb with them until she's looking me in the eye. Ziggy has started doing this too. Both dogs seem to need to touch whoever they are sitting next to when they curl up on the couch.

Shaunaugh, both my dogs are slightly different in build. Ziggy is slightly longer than Precious but they are about the same height. Ziggy might be slightly taller than Precious but there wouldn't be much in it. Precious is more stocky than Ziggy. Ziggy is kind of sleek, when he runs he looks a bit like a greyhound. Precious has semi-prick ears and Ziggy has prick ears. But when I look at both of them together I see two Koolies.

Also, when I was at my first meeting at Neilborough last year I noticed lots of variation in all the dogs, but also certain similarities and they still all looked like 'koolies' to me. Does this make sense? I'm not sure if I can explain it better.

Are anyone else's koolies jumpers? Precious was a phenomenal jumper when she was young. She could easily scale a 6 foot suburban fence and loved to take high marks when playing fetch. She still loves to take flying catches, but she's 10 now so she only jumps about 2 feet off the ground where she used to jump 3 or 4.

Ziggy is about 8 months old now and has started jumping too. When we were at the park today he was trying to direct and 'herd' Precious (at least that's what it looked like to me). They were running flat out all over the place and at one point Ziggy ran straight at Precious and just when it looked like they'd both collide, Ziggy lept (sailed?) clear over the top her and kept running, then turned and tried to make Precious take a different direction.

It looked awesome!

Michael

Ellie is a great jumper. When I go to let them out of their runs she jumps off all 4 feet from a standing position about 4 feet in the air and just seems to hang there for about a second. It is amazing to watch and no effort for her. She looks like a yoyo just bouncing up and down in one spot. She can also be sitting on my feet and if I say up she leaps into my arms from a sitting position.



I had the pleasure of hanging with the Queen on Sunday. We went out to watch an old mate of hers yoke up his bullock team and give us a demonstration on driving. We had a brilliant morning and learnt heaps. This guy has the only commercial bullock team in Australia and uses them for logging.

If I can help you with anything please let me know.

Looking forward to seeing you when you make the road trip again.

that would have been a great pic so were was your camra ?

I will post some as soon as I download them off the camera. I am learning Royalla to carry a camera everywhere so I can get that classic shot.

Libby is a great jumper. We always say she is taking Nathan Abletts spot at Geelong (she would do a better job too) She loves to play mark in the pack and will "specie" off furniture to get the footy. Kelli can jump but I think her growning body mass is making it harder LOL

Ceejay is what I call a delicate jumper, she jumps and lands very lightly on her feet. But she still has not beaten my last boy Zorro at height, Border collie x bull terrier. He could jump in the back of a ten tonne truck from a standing position, he would jump to the lip, balance and drop in. Bull terrier strength with the border collie agility.

Ceejay is very quick on her feet and it is just amazing to watch her and Izzy the kelpie x at play, it is liking watching a cross between ballet and football. They maneuver and avoid each other at the last minute by side steps and jump overs, but Ceejay is that much quicker and graceful at it. Izzy is just a great big boof compared to Ceejay.

I cannot wait until I see Ceejay with the other Koolies at play. She is an abnomoly up here, I have not come across another Koolie yet. People keep saying what an unusual looking Kelpie, and then I educate them.

This is all very exciting.

There are some real jumping koolies out there, some are competing in dog jumping events and having as big an impression as they are in trials and agility. Here is a photo of Paul Holland and his Jess competing and winning a high jump contest in Singleton. She is bred by Enid Clark and just loves Paul so much she would do anything to please. Click to view attachment

Our first Koolie Mindy used to be a great jumper and had an obsession for sticks, the further and higher you threw them the better and if you threw out over a dam it was bliss. Her daughter Yogi inherited it and our old koolie cross was the same as was the foxy X chihuahua and they would all end up in different parts of the dam mesmerised by who had the stick. It was great entertainment when kids came to visit, but the kids always gave up first. It does put them in the line of fire of injury though and Mindy had a ligament reconstruction and developed a lot of arthritis.

Well, see what happens when your off doing projects and research and get distracted.
They all take off without you.

In all the time I have spent researching this breed one thing is clear, the Koolie was created to fill the needs of the graziers, farmers and stockman.
And while this need is with us still, the Koolie will continue to evolve to meet those needs.

Originally it was a breed for all jobs, roustabout, guardian, worker, vermin catcher, and on the long mile feet warmer, camp cleaner and companion.

Then as we became mobile and our work became more specialized, so did our Koolie’s, till some strains were better for cattle, while others suited the shed and truck.

Today the Koolie is still meeting those needs.
On the Land in all regions in all climates.
Click to view attachment

In Services like search and rescue, pets as therapy, human assistance, child educators.
Click to view attachment

Sports like agility, tracking, obedience.
Click to view attachment

And always the faithful Companion there to greet you and share your family lives and interests.
Click to view attachment

The Koolie must be viewed as a complete picture and all its traits that make it memorable a part of that picture, but unlike a picture frozen in time the Koolie will continue to subtly change as our needs change.

Structure is a beginning not a conclusion, just like DNA and the breed spacifity test they’re here to help us understand and avoid making the same mistakes pure breeds have done, we all understand the importance of not getting focused on just one trait.

The Koolie is ever evolving and with protection, tolerance and care we can see this breed remain with us into our grandchildrens time, where hopefully they will be having the same thoughtful look at their Koolie’s

I'm such an anxious dog-mother, very scared of him hurting his cruciate.

When Wal plays I try to get ppl to throw the toy in the direction he's facing, so he doesn't spin on his back legs too quickly. If he's facing me, I move the toy while still holding it to re-align him at a slower speed. No playing that involves running on slippery floors etc. When they spin seems to be when most dogs do their cruciate. Although, when I saw Chris Zink last year she was talking about how, in humans, when we do our cruciate it's an acute injury - the ligament is fairly normal and we do something and it snaps, but in dogs it will be very deteriorated (she said like jelly) so perhaps is caused by other things like genetics or diet or wear and tear (bit of a mystery yet) and would break regardless of what the dog did.

My dog physio said to use toys that will roll when they hit the ground, so that the dog doesn't have to hit the brakes too fast when chasing it.

the things I have noticed Koolies doing and not other breeds are:

jumping straight up on all fours

patting you for attention

licking your arms, feet and legs when they like you and nuzzling the back of your neck if they can get to it

forgetting you are not the same species and talking to you in a clicking language that they all seem to understand and I wish I did

sulking if they don't get what they want or feel unappreciated

being incredibly nosey and standing on their backlegs to see over a counter or fence or just to see in the distance

I am sure there are more but these are the ones that come to mind.

Yes Ceejay is a great licker and is especially partial to my partners bald head. lol. Ceejay has also acquired the head tilting when you talk to her she is constantly tilting her head as though she is saying I'm listening keep talking.

I have also noticed that Ceejay can jump and land on all fours but so delicate.

I have not heard her do a clicking language (mind you Izzy my kelpie x does a weird mix of howl and bark). Can you tell me more about this?

Ceejay does the pat thing, Izzy has learnt it from Ceejay. Actually Izzy has picked up a few Koolie traits.

Water, Ceejay likes scooping the water with her nose as she is running.

Oh and Izzy, has anyone seen a dog duck dive before? And she also blows bubbles when she does go under.

And I have noticed especially since I have been laid off with Glandular fever, Ceejay has been up on the bed with me and always sleeps with me with some part touching me, after giving me a good tongue lashing.

And thank goodness both dogs do have that off switch I think I would have gone crazy especially being laid up in bed a lot lately.